Life of Annie: Things are easier said than done

Friday, 30 December 2016

Things are easier said than done - Part 2

Okay, as I put it, I'm in the lazy mood now.

Tomorrow is the last day of 2016.

So, I'm just going to post this rather interesting ongoing debate between commentators in my previous posting,

Things are easier said than done

Anonymous24 December 2016 at 23:45

M Zin,

//Why quote ISIS whose summary kilings universally condemded as murder,//

Why NOT quote ISIS?

Many of their practices have solid foundation in Islamic jurisprudence.

As you can see from the above example by Annie, stoning an adulteress is EXACTLY what is in Islamic jurisprudence.

Another example is the cutting off of limbs.

Or how about the blood of kafir harbi?

And so the list goes...

So, what is the difference between the practices of ISIS and that which is in Islamic jurisprudence?

ISIS is an example of what many non-Muslims, and no doubt many Muslims themselves, fear about Islamic jurisprudence.

And Hadi Awang is seen as nothing more than an advocate of ISIS ideology and ISIS practices.

In fact, I am willing to bet that most of the Malaysians fighting for ISIS in Syria and Iraq started off as PAS supporters.

Gladiator

Anonymous25 December 2016 at 10:51

Hudud is a very small area of Muslim jurisprudence, Sdr Gladiator
and as explained above that unlike ISIS there are legal processes through courts before the Kadi judges passes sentence. We can continue this doscussion here on LoA, and OK if you already passed your judgement

Not ISIS not even Fiqh laws however give a comprehensive picture of Islam Syaria which more emphasises direct and personal Tauhid conections with Allah SWT, and Sufism to strive for best character among others.

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

Anonymous25 December 2016 at 17:43

The "comprehensive picture of Islam" is justice and loving-kindness by means of deliberating on the "maqasid al-syariah" to mould and mend civil society.

Anonymous25 December 2016 at 22:59

M Zin,

//Hudud is a very small area of Muslim jurisprudence//

So, because it is a small area, we should not discuss it?

Sounds more like you are trying to avoid discussing it or even drawing attention to it :)

Never mind that barbaric practices are being carried out in the name of Islam?

So, what happens when your so-called "legal processes" are heavily skewed towards punishment as in the case of ISIS?

Let's be honest, the people who run ISIS probably have a much better understanding of Islamic jurisprudence than you do :)

Many of those ISIS people are very likely graduates of the same universities as Hadi Awang and others in PAS.

Will you be one of those who would stone "your lil sis" Annie if she was found guilty of adultery?

Gladiator

Anonymous26 December 2016 at 13:37

ISIS is not supported by Muslims in general, Sdtr Gladiator
and their killings mainly warfare expediency which is not Islamic. Just ask your Muslim neighbours

With or without your support majority Muslims want Bill 355
( although will not pass for political reasons?)

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

Anonymous26 December 2016 at 21:55

M Zin,

//ISIS is not supported by Muslims in general//

Well, the punishments ISIS hands out like stoning for adultery seem to be supported by Muslims in Malaysia.

So, will you stone your "lil sis" Annie if she was found guilty of adultery under Islamic law?

Gladiator

Anonymous27 December 2016 at 11:01

Yes in-sya-Allah, Sdr Gladiator
subject to due court process and really against current social sanctions

The Prophet SAW reminded:
" What destroyed your predecessors was just that when a person of rank among them committed a theft they left him alone,
and when a weak one of them committed a theft, they inflicted the prescribed punishment on him. I swear by Allah that if Fatimah daughter of Muhammad should steal, I would have her hand cut off"

-- Hadith Sahih Ibn Majah
( Book 40 on Hudud)

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

Anonymous27 December 2016 at 19:31

Yes I was distracted here from Maqasid al-Syaria, TQ Sdr ANON 17:43
which are the highest and more comprehensive 5 objectives of Syaria way of life for the biggest communuity

Fiqh prosesses support the objectives

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

Anonymous27 December 2016 at 22:47

M Zin,

//Yes in-sya-Allah, Sdr Gladiator
subject to due court process and really against current social sanctions//

So, you are saying that you will kill your "lil sis" Annie for adultery, right?

We have already agreed that "due court process" have been met.

I have no idea what you mean by "and really against current social sanctions" in that sentence.

It sounds like a jumble of words and no matter how many times I read it, that phrase is meaningless.

You need a reality check in regards to your views.

You are going to be involved in killing a person for a matter which does not involve you at all.

You are not your "lil sis" Annie who committed the adultery, you are not your "lil sis" Annie's husband, you are not the person with whom your "lil sis" Annie committed the adultery with.

And yet, you would kill your "lil sis" Annie? For a matter which is none of your business?

You need to re-assess your sense of values and humanity.

Do you understand why non-Muslims think your beliefs are primitive and barbaric?

Gladiator

Anonymous28 December 2016 at 10:58

You asked and I explained above, Sdr Gladiator
Due court process(?) will be judged case by case

You are entitled to your beliefs and the majority will in-sya-Allah carry on with Syaria

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

Anonymous29 December 2016 at 10:04

M Zin,

//You asked and I explained above//

Explain why you are getting involved in a matter which has nothing to do with you?

Explain why you are going to kill your "lil sis" Annie when it is none of your business what she does with her life?

You have really not explained anything.

Gladiator

Anonymous29 December 2016 at 22:28

Sure not personally my business, as sentencing for adultery is by YA Hakim in court. Is that still confusing you?

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

Anonymous30 December 2016 at 00:13

M Zin,

//Sure not personally my business//

So why are you going around killing your "lil sis" Annie, for something which is "not personally your business"?

Gladiator

Anonymous30 December 2016 at 15:19

if anyone doing adultery, its going to cause damage to society
if you are not punished here by stoning, you will suffer in hereafter
if you refuse punishment then your relationship with allah can be questioned
therefore dont commit adultery and control your lust

Anonymous30 December 2016 at 22:38

Anonymous @ 30 December 2016 at 15:19,

//if anyone doing adultery, its going to cause damage to society//

Nonsense!!

Adultery has been going on for thousands of years and society is still around.

In fact, countries where adultery is not punishable by stoning to death are, arguably, way more advanced than countries which advocate stoning adulterers.

//if you are not punished here by stoning, you will suffer in hereafter//

My unicorn god promised me a great hereafter no matter what I do here.

//if you refuse punishment then your relationship with allah can be questioned//

Really?

So one who is adulterous need to accept being stoned to death?

Which moron came up with that idea?

Which moron would want to accept such an idea?

//therefore dont commit adultery and control your lust//

That is just your view.

What if a person wishes to indulge in their lust?

Are you going to go around imposing your views on him/her by stoning them to death?

Gladiator

Well, interesting isn't it?

Maybe they can continue the debate here at this fresh posting.

But really. Stoning someone to death is quite scary.

I think it's not only scary for the one being stoned but also scary for the ones who have to cast the stones.

I think I would be traumatised if forced to stone someone to death.

Here, I'm again putting up this video of a depiction on how someone is being stoned to death,

Why can't they just shoot her to death or chop her head off?

I think those are more humane ways of killing someone.

If I'm not mistaken, under hudud, a convicted murderer will have his/her head chopped off.

That seems a better deal.

Is adultery worse than murder?

Sorry. My knowledge of hudud is very sketchy.

64 comments:

Anonymous31 December 2016 at 02:26
M Zin, how about the hudud for "LIWAT" sesama lelaki?
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Anonymous31 December 2016 at 09:38
Annie,

//rather interesting ongoing debate between commentators//

To be honest, I am not engaging in any form of debate with anybody.

I am genuinely curious as to why some pople who call themselves Muslims insist on portraying Islam as a barbaric and primitive religion, when, in fact, I know that Islam was once at the very forefront of the arts, science and philosophy.

The social implications of hudud just seem so horrendous that the mind boggles as to why these so-called Muslims insist on introducing it.

Another worrying trend seems to be that some so-called Muslims think it is perfectly OK to go out and kill someone because someone told them that Allah said so.

I think you said you were told that such penalties are "Allah's law".

Does this mean that the mooted changes to Syariah penalties are actually from Allah and not Hadi Awang?

Or is Hadi Awang actually you-know-who disguised as a Kelantan politician?

How would we feel if the Jews said that they are killing Palestinians because their god told them it was perfectly OK to kill non-Jews?

I have noticed that most religions have adapted and modified themselves to fit into a 21st century lifestyle to make themselves relevant and palatable to a more sophisticated audience.

And yet, we have so-called Muslims who seem to think that going back to the 1400s is a great idea.

I am reminded of that strange and weird Jewish sect which forbids its adherents from turning on/off electrical switches or milking cows on Sabbath. These beliefs pre-date Islam and are still followed by the faithful!

I am also reminded that I was told that the Quran was 'contextual" which I took to mean that it was written in the context of the 1400s.

Surely with so many supposedly clever and learned Islamic scholars, why aren't we interpreting the context of the 1400s in 21st century terms to modernise Islam and make Islam more relevant and more reflective of our lifestyles today?

Gladitor
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Anonymous31 December 2016 at 09:41
Hudud is just a political ploy.at least in Malaysia it helps to keep Pas in Kelantan for almost 30 years

Prof Kangkung
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Anonymous31 December 2016 at 09:54

Homosexual sodomy is not listed under Hudud, Sdr ANON 02:26
but regarded a serious Syaria crime. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that widely practiced it were destroyed by Allah SWT according to biblical and Islamic records

It is now punishable under our Penal code and judge-discretionary/ Takzir under Syaria law

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH
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Anonymous31 December 2016 at 10:06
I normally do not agree with M Zin's political views but on this I fully support him. To gladiator , you are not entiirely wrong as your arguments are based on logic, humanity and society over its worldly concerns.And to Annie , I wish I can ask you why do you need to post this thread at all ,of course this your own blog and you can post anything you like.
wak
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Anonymous31 December 2016 at 10:44
Happy New Year Annie.

:)
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Anonymous31 December 2016 at 12:19
Dumno did the math and realised the way to the right will Ensure its relevance. To achieve it, a siege environment has been effectively created. The cost of which we, the ordinary Rakyat will bear. Scum like blobby who helps perpetuate this should be exposed.
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Anonymous31 December 2016 at 18:03
M Zin,

//there is Ijtihad ulama to interprete al-Quran//

I am not so concerned with those ulama at this point.

I am more curious why you yourself would go out and kill your "lil sis" Annie because she committed adultery.

You have already said that her adultery is none of your business.

Gladiator
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Anonymous1 January 2017 at 05:41
The world is a temporary place
The pleasure derived is transcient
Do not commit adultery miss annie and that includes every muslim and muslimah
Hollywood aside, Im not joking
If you do managed to avoid stoning then please repent to allah
Bertaubat sincerely reflect upon it and insyaallah you will be forgiven
That is why islam is peace
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Anonymous1 January 2017 at 10:28

Yes Bertaubat repent now, absolutely not despair the Mercy of Allah SWT Sdr ANON 05:41

( Al-Quran, 39: 53)

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH
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Anonymous3 January 2017 at 18:11
You expect Razak to explain or enlighten someone who has no ability to think for himself, as accurately pointed out by Gladiator? No amount of explanation by him would work on you, M Zin. You wouldn't have the DEPTH to comprehend anyway. Stop referring to false hadiths and refer to the one and only true hadith, the Quran itself, will you? Maybe then, hopefully you will finally get it.

LoA Reader
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Anonymous3 January 2017 at 20:03

Ms Annie and Gladiator had some great questions, Sdr LoA reader
and they were rightly concerned that we will in-sya-Allah make Islam the official religion of the nation. Since there were no answers in depth from more leanered Muslims here, I tried to explain to best of my knowledge

Jenayah Syariah:
I studpied the principles of Jenayah Syariah Islam under Assoc Prof Dr Hashim Mehat of UKM but that was many decades ago. Our kampung masjid has Tadabbur al-Quran every morning using Tafsir Ibn Kathir that we follow now

You may ignore my answers, but which hadith was false?
( I quoted just one)

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

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Anonymous3 January 2017 at 23:36
M Zin,

I did say I would make some final observations above but allow me to make a couple more.

//make Islam the official religion of the nation.//

Even if Islam was the official religion of the nation, it should not mean a person goes around killing and maiming people for matters which do not involve him/her.

Is that what Islam is about? I don't think so.

However, Hadi Awang seems to believe that Islam is about punishing people - the more they are punished, they better they will behave.

Is that what Islam is about?

No, it is what Hadi Awang is about.

//Since there were no answers in depth from more leanered Muslims here, I tried to explain to best of my knowledge//

But it was not just a question of what Islam is about.

I was also curious as to what M Zin, the man, was thinking when he said he would kill a person he seemed to like, to wit, his "lil sis" Annie, for a matter which did not involve him.

From what I gather, there are many Malaysian Muslims who think like you.

And quite a few of these Malaysian Muslims hold the reins of power in Malaysia and they can influence policy directions.

Is it good that we have a Malaysia where people go around killing and maiming others for matters which do not involve us?

Mind you, these penalties are provided for in Islamic jurisprudence - and some people say that it is "Allah's law". Is it really?

//I studpied the principles of Jenayah Syariah Islam under Assoc Prof Dr Hashim Mehat of UKM but that was many decades ago.//

Who you studied under matters little if you never did get to understand the humanity within yourself after all that study.

Everything I have discussed with you came from my own little brain, my own experiences, my own observations - no university, no associate professors, no writing long essays, no long prayer sessions, nothing.

Am I clever?

If you consider scratching your head and asking, what could possibly be, dumb questions to be clever, then maybe I am.

But to be truthful, anybody can scratch their heads and ask, what could possibly be, dumb questions, even you, so you are as clever as me in that regard.

It was an interesting study discussing this matter with you and I wonder what results I would get from talking to another person who may share your views. :)

Thank you for your time and I am sure there will be a next time and a next subject.

Gladiator

P.S. No need to do the Japanese thing and thank me for thanking you or this thread will never end :) Thank you. :)
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Anonymous4 January 2017 at 00:12

You're welcome and good luck, Sdr Gladiator

NB. Syaria: Many Malaysians support it while some including Muslims OK, have other ideas

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH
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Anonymous4 January 2017 at 16:55
Many Malaysians support it without understanding what it is all about, in short they supported it blindly.

Also there are many Malaysians who do not support it but dare not voice out for fear of being demonized.
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Anonymous4 January 2017 at 18:41

Absolutely no Hudud without thorough understanding by Muslims and non-Muslims, Sdr ANON 16:55
certainly Muslims learn the principles and basic issues before discounting it

Moving forward:
Argueably whether Hudud or not(?) UMNO should in taking over the lead in Ammendment Bill 355 not fail like al-Fadhil TGHA
in communicating it

The MoI alhamduli 'Llah has many media channel choices, and DSP Md Salleh should encourage dialogue over social media

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

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Anonymous4 January 2017 at 22:57
Since you are fond of saying Hudud is Allah's law, M Zin, show us here the actual verses or Surah from the Quran that specifically say that adulterers should be stoned to death and deserved death penalty. Don't go about quoting from Hadith ok. For something as serious as taking humans' lives, Allah certainly can't missed on this if He wills and allows it. Let me repeat, SHOW us anywhere in the Quran that specifically command that adulterers must be stoned to death.

Where else if you care enough to study the Bible, it is clearly stated in it that such thing is permissible. I'll save you your time and put it here so that we can compare should you are able to point out to us that it can also be found in the Quran:

Deuteronomy 22: 22 – 24

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,

24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Again here:
Leviticus 20:10

10 ” ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

LoA Reader
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Anonymous5 January 2017 at 07:45

Although yes some dispute the latter, Sdr LoA
both al-Quran and Sunnahs are nass for Usul Fiqh jurisprudence

NB.
1) Bible Old Testament: Yes sure many same rules from Ibrahimic teachings but Christians chose to superceed some with New Testament
2) Fatwa on Hudud: I leave it to learned Majlis Fatwa panel to evaluate the admissibilty of the Hadiths in question. I know and trust the Majlis members for Melaka BWD
although disagree with one or two fatwas

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH
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Anonymous7 January 2017 at 10:41
M Zin,

My apologies for speaking up again but I find it quite unbelievable that you are continuing to speak like a person of authority on the subject of Islam.

From 4 January 2017 at 18:41:
//Absolutely no Hudud without thorough understanding by Muslims and non-Muslims//

Seeing as you will kill your "lil sis" Annie for adultery, you are implying that you have a thorough understanding of hudud.

I suppose you feel it is only the lesser-educated Muslims and the non-Muslims who don't understand.

But you refuse to explain your personal motivations for wanting to kill your 'lil sis' Annie for adultery.

I wonder what are you hiding?

I wonder why you are hiding whatever it is you are hiding?

I think you should stop making any statements on matters relating to Islam until you can answer some very basic questions about your own relationship to and beliefs in Islam.

//but Christians chose to superceed some with New Testament//

Looks like Christians are smarter and more forgiving than Muslims.

They know how and when to stop primitive and barbaric practices and they did it a long long time before Muslims.

Maybe Muslims should learn how the Christians have managed to do it :)

Maybe that is why Christianity is more respected and favoured by people around the world.

Islam in Malaysia is growing only because Muslims in Malaysia have lots of children.

Give the Malays free choice of religion and see what happens :)

I predict that the power of the ular-mak in Malaysia will collapse within one generation, max two.

//I know and trust the Majlis members for Melaka BWD//

Here we go again.

Let somebody else do the thinking for you in matters where YOU should be the one doing the thinking.

Gladiator
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Anonymous7 January 2017 at 14:04

The Majlis Fatwa members are qualified, Sdr Gladiator
to issue fatwas. They:

1) Interprete al-Quran in the original language
( cannot rely merely on others translation)
2) Follow a robust jurisprudence process
3) Make decision by consensus
4) Option: Enforce fatwa by passing enactments and laws in the state assembly or Parliament

They are the authority not us, and since no else doing it I'm just trying to explain the broad processes boleh?

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH

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Anonymous7 January 2017 at 23:21

I was only responding to Sdr LoAs above comments
and not for me to say any reader here is an authority
( Sdr Gladiator, you at 10:41)

I note your comments OK(?) Sdr Gladiator

M Zin
Alor Gajah DPH
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Anonymous11 January 2017 at 15:49
Gladiator,

For Muslims, hudud are punishments fixed by Allah. From the point of view of a Muslim, it is something that is immutable. For lack of an analogy, since you are an atheist and you don't believe in the existence of God, even if I tell you that it is unreasonable not to believe in God, you will still say He does not exist.

To ask if Annie should be punished should she commit adultery, you must know how the punishment can and cannot be implemented under Islamic law. The slightest of doubt as to Annie's alleged adultery would result in the punishment being inapplicable.

For the punishment of rajm for zina, it is not provided in the Quran but the punishment was carried out by the Prophet as is narrated by Abu Hurairah. It is a hadith sahih and in Sahih Al Bukhari. It was narrated by Abu Hurairah that only after the offender confessed to the Prophet directly four times and the offender was determined not to be insane, only then did the Prophet ordered that the punishment be carried out. This means that the punishment is almost never carried out and where there is even the slightest of doubt (higher degree than beyond reasonable doubt), the punishment cannot be carried out.
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Anonymous11 January 2017 at 22:06
"For Muslims, hudud are punishments fixed by Allah."
Anonymous @ 11 January 2017 at 15:49

Here we go again. Really now? Punishment fixed by Allah? Yet not in the Quran?

Based on Hadith sahih? So is the part about a hungry goat that ate the piece of parchment with the verse too. And this is what sahih is to you?

LoA Reader
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Anonymous12 January 2017 at 18:12
LOA Reader that hadith is not sahih. Clearly you have not studied Islamic jurisprudence. The Quran is like an immutable constitution for all Muslims whereas Hadiths are the practises of the Prophet.

There are many punishments that you call barbaric which may not be barbaric to others. For example if your wife was tortured by a psycho by having her ears cut off you may not think that stoning the psycho is barbaric. Some countries think that hanging a man for distributing 10kg of drugs is barbaric but others think that it is justifiable as hundreds of people die of drug abuse every year.
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