M Zin, how about the hudud for "LIWAT" sesama lelaki?
Annie,//rather interesting ongoing debate between commentators//To be honest, I am not engaging in any form of debate with anybody.I am genuinely curious as to why some pople who call themselves Muslims insist on portraying Islam as a barbaric and primitive religion, when, in fact, I know that Islam was once at the very forefront of the arts, science and philosophy.The social implications of hudud just seem so horrendous that the mind boggles as to why these so-called Muslims insist on introducing it.Another worrying trend seems to be that some so-called Muslims think it is perfectly OK to go out and kill someone because someone told them that Allah said so.I think you said you were told that such penalties are "Allah's law".Does this mean that the mooted changes to Syariah penalties are actually from Allah and not Hadi Awang?Or is Hadi Awang actually you-know-who disguised as a Kelantan politician?How would we feel if the Jews said that they are killing Palestinians because their god told them it was perfectly OK to kill non-Jews?I have noticed that most religions have adapted and modified themselves to fit into a 21st century lifestyle to make themselves relevant and palatable to a more sophisticated audience.And yet, we have so-called Muslims who seem to think that going back to the 1400s is a great idea.I am reminded of that strange and weird Jewish sect which forbids its adherents from turning on/off electrical switches or milking cows on Sabbath. These beliefs pre-date Islam and are still followed by the faithful!I am also reminded that I was told that the Quran was 'contextual" which I took to mean that it was written in the context of the 1400s.Surely with so many supposedly clever and learned Islamic scholars, why aren't we interpreting the context of the 1400s in 21st century terms to modernise Islam and make Islam more relevant and more reflective of our lifestyles today?Gladitor
Do you think people who has possession of drug to be hanged to death are barbaric?
Contd'With modern medicine drug, drug are considered "lifestyle today" too.I just dont agree with hudud implementation if its pilih bulu. Thats all.
Yes there is Ijtihad ulama to interprete al-Quran, Sdr Gladiatorsuch as the haram fatwa against smoking by Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan in 1995Most are open to interpretation but some al-Quran verses for example on Hudud are specific and taken literally( NB. OK even here there are contrary but minority ulama views)M Zin47650 Putra Heights
Anonymous @ 31 December 2016 at 14:03,//Do you think people who has possession of drug to be hanged to death are barbaric?//I think that nowadays, most countries we consider to be advanced do not have the death penalty for drugs.And I tend to agree that killing a person for mere possession is silly.Long jail terms seem to pay better dividends.Gladiator
Ok gladiator.Thanks, u open up my mind.Thanks again
Hudud is just a political ploy.at least in Malaysia it helps to keep Pas in Kelantan for almost 30 yearsProf Kangkung
Hadi Awang, how do you compute the hudud punishment for 38 men (some married mostly non-married) who gang raped a 15-year old girl that lasted 3 hours? Kami agak mu arif sangat ia berlaku di rantau sebelah mana.
Homosexual sodomy is not listed under Hudud, Sdr ANON 02:26 but regarded a serious Syaria crime. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that widely practiced it were destroyed by Allah SWT according to biblical and Islamic recordsIt is now punishable under our Penal code and judge-discretionary/ Takzir under Syaria lawM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
Bro. Zin, if a married woman who has sex with some man other than her husband "deserves" to be stoned... then what about a married man who has sex with a man other than his wife? Does he not deserve to be stoned also? What if the married man keeps having sex with different men... are we going to rain down hailstones on his head?
Sebab tu sistem undang-undang konvesional dikekalkan anon 12:15.
I normally do not agree with M Zin's political views but on this I fully support him. To gladiator , you are not entiirely wrong as your arguments are based on logic, humanity and society over its worldly concerns.And to Annie , I wish I can ask you why do you need to post this thread at all ,of course this your own blog and you can post anything you like.wak
"Dear seeker, you will not be able to rise to carry out the commands of Allah until you monitor your heart and limbs in every moment and every breath."-Imam Al-GhazaliWho knows his own soul will know the Lord who sustains it.
Anonymous @ 31 December 2016 at 10:06,//why do you need to post this thread at all//As I said, once upon a time, Muslims were at the forefront of critical thinking.Today, Muslims seem to be discouraged from thinking.Gladiator
If M Zin quoted a genuine Hadith (Hadith soheh), I will quote a verse (Surah) from the Quran...Say, "O disbelievers.I do not worship what you worship.Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."Surah Al Kafirun.All Muslims live by the Quran and Hadith.This is a very basic fundamental fact.Anybody who do not know or cannot understand this , then any kind of intellectual discourse / intelligent discussions with a Muslim on Islam will be abortive.wak
Happy New Year Annie.:)
Dumno did the math and realised the way to the right will Ensure its relevance. To achieve it, a siege environment has been effectively created. The cost of which we, the ordinary Rakyat will bear. Scum like blobby who helps perpetuate this should be exposed.
M Zin,//there is Ijtihad ulama to interprete al-Quran//I am not so concerned with those ulama at this point.I am more curious why you yourself would go out and kill your "lil sis" Annie because she committed adultery.You have already said that her adultery is none of your business.Gladiator
Clearly from above, I meant kill(?) in the collective legal sense from a court sentence, Sdr GladiatorAdultery is one of many Syaria crimesM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,//Clearly from above//Sorry, it is not very clear to me.Above? Where "above"?//I meant kill(?) in the collective legal sense from a court sentence//Again, I apologise for my poor understanding of your rather complex English sentence.Why does "kill" have a question mark?Are you now suggesting you are going to stone your "lil sis" Annie for adultery, but not kill her?What does "collective legal sense from a court sentence" mean?Please do use simple English sentences as I am not very good at understanding your complex English sentences.@ 26 December 2016 at 21:55, I asked you //So, will you stone your "lil sis" Annie if she was found guilty of adultery under Islamic law?//@ 27 December 2016 at 11:01, you replied //Yes in-sya-Allah//You also had other words following which I simply did not understand despite reading it several times - //subject to due court process and really against current social sanctions//You may wish to take the opportunity to explain those words - in plain simple English, please, if possible because I get easily confused from your rather complex English sentences.So far, I have determined that you seem quite happy to kill your "lil sis" Annie for her adultery.But you are not explaining why you are doing so when you are doing so despite your saying it is none of your business.Could you explain why you are willing to kill your "lil sis" Annie for adultery despite it being none of your business as you have stated?Again I would appreciate any explanation in plain simple English due to my aforementioned inabilities.//Adultery is one of many Syaria crimes//Lots of things are Syaria crimes.Lots of Syaria crimes seem to have barbaric and/or primitive penalties which, apparently, are "Allah's law".Personally, I don't believe many of those crimes and those penalties are "Allah's law" but are, in fact, man-made laws and man-made penalties, just like what Hadi Awang is trying to introduce.Of cos, I may be presumptuous in assuming that Hadi Awang is merely a man - he could be You-Know-Who in disguise.Anyway, it would be nice if you could address the above questions I have which are puzzling me.ThanksGladiatorP.S. And a Happy New Year to everybody, especially our host, Annie.
OK wish you happily puzzled then(?) Sdr Gladiatoror you find someone else to satisfy you( many Muslims here apparently understand)Life is complex enough without worrying about the Hereafter and OK you obviously don't appreciate my best attempt at answersHappy new year in-sya-Allah to you and all in the LoA familyM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,//wish you happily puzzled then//And I thought you were interested in a serious discussion as you seemed so confident in your beliefs.//or you find someone else to satisfy you//The questions I asked relate to you directly so I don't know why you are asking me to find somebody else to answer questions about your motivations.Does this mean that you are refusing to discuss this matter any further?I wonder why.I mean, you support what Hadi Awang is doing, so I was offering you the opportunity to promote the cause of Islam and why it is appropriate as a model for governance.//( many Muslims here apparently understand)//The operative word there is "apparently".Do you understand why you are killing a person for something which has nothing to do with you?I think it is a simple enough question with no catches, no tricks.This is your chance to establish your Islamic credentials.//Life is complex enough without worrying about the Hereafter//I am not discussing the Hereafter, so I don't know why you bring that up.//OK you obviously don't appreciate my best attempt at answers//Hm.. the problem here is that you are not even trying to answer anything.You have been evasive and repeatedly refused to answer simple questions.Instead, you use words with individual meanings and when put together in a sentence, the sentence sounds very impressive but it doesn't really mean anything.When asked for clarification, you avoid providing any.Anyway, if you cannot explain in simple words why you want to kill your "lil sis" Annie for a matter which does not involve you, why do you support such measures and ask that others support them?I mean you seem so confident and certain that such an act is the right thing to do but when asked why, you give no answers and resort to making impressive statements which are incomprehensible.I suspect that if I was Muslim, you would be using Arabic words and quoting phrases from the Quran to justify your actions - do you remember that fellow from Abu Dhabi I mentioned here some time ago?I hope it helps you understand why many non-Muslims are suspicious of Muslims.M Zin, I apologise for being so direct in my criticism but it is my longheld belief that Islam in Malaysia has been hijacked by parties who have little regard for what is right or wrong as long as they have power over other Muslims.This discussion we have had on just one aspect of hudud is simply more evidence that Muslims in Malaysia are being misled into accepting primitive and barbaric practices under the pretext that it is so Islamic.Islam in Malaysia is not the Islam I know from my travels overseas.Maybe Syed Akbar Ali is right - Islam in Malaysia has been hijacked by followers of Syaitan who want Islam to look stupid, primitive and barbaric.Gladiator
The world is a temporary placeThe pleasure derived is transcientDo not commit adultery miss annie and that includes every muslim and muslimahHollywood aside, Im not jokingIf you do managed to avoid stoning then please repent to allahBertaubat sincerely reflect upon it and insyaallah you will be forgivenThat is why islam is peace
Anonymous @ 1 January 2017 at 05:41,Two statements you have made seem to cancel out each other.First you say :-//If you do managed to avoid stoning//To you are suggesting that stoning is part and parcel of Islamic law.Then you say :-//That is why islam is peace//If Islam is peace, why is Islamic law telling you to kill somebody by stoning them to death?Gladiator
Yes Bertaubat repent now, absolutely not despair the Mercy of Allah SWT Sdr ANON 05:41( Al-Quran, 39: 53)M ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,According to Anon 05:41, it looks like repenting is only possible IF your "lil sis" can avoid being stoned to death.So, in your view, does a person repent BEFORE or AFTER being stoned to death?See?A simple question :)Gladiator
Good Q that we can refer to the ulama, Sdr GladiatorReality check: There are cases of Syaria criminals in Malaysia who revert to Murtad apostasy to avoid punishment( simplest answer?)NB. No punishment for apostasy in Malaysia, start by applying to Syaria High CourtM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,//Good Q that we can refer to the ulama//Therein lies one big difference between you and me.I think and I ask questions of myself, and I think some more and if I need more info, I ask questions to those around me and I think some more and if I need more info, I ask an authority.You turn to an authority without stopping to think.Maybe that why you will stone your "lil sis" first.//NB. No punishment for apostasy in Malaysia,//Realty check: Give them time and the opportunity.Hadi Awang wants a country which will faithfully follow ALL Islamic laws.There are already people in Malaysia who are quite happy to accept the death penalty for some "crimes", eg stoning adulterers to death.I don't think they will have any problems with executing apostates if the ulama says so. Do you personally support the death penalty for apostates of Islam?Gladiator
Go easy on M Zin, Gladiator. The more you rebut and exposed his lack of understanding on matters related to his own faith, the more shallow he appears to us here.
Love it if you expose your DEPTH of understanding, Sdr RazakWa Salamu alaikum!M ZinAlor Gajah DPH
Razak,Thanks for the heads-up on my lack of courtesy to other commentators here.I think I should stop it here and make some final observations.If there are so-called Muslims who are happy to make the official religion of the nation, Islam, look primitive or barbaric, it should not concern me, I guess.After all, I am just an unimportant non-Malay non-Muslim Malaysian and to make matters worse, I am an atheist :)And you know what they say about us, atheists, don't you?No principles, no morals, no ethics, godless, evil, don't know right from wrong. misguided.At least, I don't think it is right to go around killing someone for something which has nothing to do with me. :)Gladiator
No, I must thank you instead, Gladiator. For exposing this fraud so-called haji guy. How true, to bare them naked is to keep asking them the right question until they start getting evasive and doing Tai-chi all around. In my book, despite you being an atheist, you are more Muslim than these fakers. I admire your patience in engaging him.
Razak,//No, I must thank you instead, Gladiator.//Hey, we better not do the Japanese thing where I thank you and you thank me and then I thank you back and you thank me back ad infinitum?Otherwise, this could be the longest ever thread in this blog - infinity takes a long time.I have heard of a case of two Japanese men who missed a plane because one was insistent in not being outdone by the other in saying thanks :) Must have been an urnban myth :)Those Japanese are weird folks, but I shouldn't say too much or I'll never get another comment approved by Annie for making fun of the Japanese :)We ALL know how much she looooves all things Japanese. :)Gladiator
You expect Razak to explain or enlighten someone who has no ability to think for himself, as accurately pointed out by Gladiator? No amount of explanation by him would work on you, M Zin. You wouldn't have the DEPTH to comprehend anyway. Stop referring to false hadiths and refer to the one and only true hadith, the Quran itself, will you? Maybe then, hopefully you will finally get it.LoA Reader
Ms Annie and Gladiator had some great questions, Sdr LoA readerand they were rightly concerned that we will in-sya-Allah make Islam the official religion of the nation. Since there were no answers in depth from more leanered Muslims here, I tried to explain to best of my knowledgeJenayah Syariah:I studpied the principles of Jenayah Syariah Islam under Assoc Prof Dr Hashim Mehat of UKM but that was many decades ago. Our kampung masjid has Tadabbur al-Quran every morning using Tafsir Ibn Kathir that we follow nowYou may ignore my answers, but which hadith was false?( I quoted just one)M ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,I did say I would make some final observations above but allow me to make a couple more.//make Islam the official religion of the nation.//Even if Islam was the official religion of the nation, it should not mean a person goes around killing and maiming people for matters which do not involve him/her.Is that what Islam is about? I don't think so.However, Hadi Awang seems to believe that Islam is about punishing people - the more they are punished, they better they will behave.Is that what Islam is about?No, it is what Hadi Awang is about.//Since there were no answers in depth from more leanered Muslims here, I tried to explain to best of my knowledge//But it was not just a question of what Islam is about.I was also curious as to what M Zin, the man, was thinking when he said he would kill a person he seemed to like, to wit, his "lil sis" Annie, for a matter which did not involve him.From what I gather, there are many Malaysian Muslims who think like you.And quite a few of these Malaysian Muslims hold the reins of power in Malaysia and they can influence policy directions.Is it good that we have a Malaysia where people go around killing and maiming others for matters which do not involve us?Mind you, these penalties are provided for in Islamic jurisprudence - and some people say that it is "Allah's law". Is it really?//I studpied the principles of Jenayah Syariah Islam under Assoc Prof Dr Hashim Mehat of UKM but that was many decades ago.//Who you studied under matters little if you never did get to understand the humanity within yourself after all that study.Everything I have discussed with you came from my own little brain, my own experiences, my own observations - no university, no associate professors, no writing long essays, no long prayer sessions, nothing.Am I clever?If you consider scratching your head and asking, what could possibly be, dumb questions to be clever, then maybe I am.But to be truthful, anybody can scratch their heads and ask, what could possibly be, dumb questions, even you, so you are as clever as me in that regard.It was an interesting study discussing this matter with you and I wonder what results I would get from talking to another person who may share your views. :)Thank you for your time and I am sure there will be a next time and a next subject.GladiatorP.S. No need to do the Japanese thing and thank me for thanking you or this thread will never end :) Thank you. :)
You're welcome and good luck, Sdr GladiatorNB. Syaria: Many Malaysians support it while some including Muslims OK, have other ideasM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
Many Malaysians support it without understanding what it is all about, in short they supported it blindly.Also there are many Malaysians who do not support it but dare not voice out for fear of being demonized.
Absolutely no Hudud without thorough understanding by Muslims and non-Muslims, Sdr ANON 16:55certainly Muslims learn the principles and basic issues before discounting itMoving forward:Argueably whether Hudud or not(?) UMNO should in taking over the lead in Ammendment Bill 355 not fail like al-Fadhil TGHAin communicating itThe MoI alhamduli 'Llah has many media channel choices, and DSP Md Salleh should encourage dialogue over social media M ZinAlor Gajah DPH
Since you are fond of saying Hudud is Allah's law, M Zin, show us here the actual verses or Surah from the Quran that specifically say that adulterers should be stoned to death and deserved death penalty. Don't go about quoting from Hadith ok. For something as serious as taking humans' lives, Allah certainly can't missed on this if He wills and allows it. Let me repeat, SHOW us anywhere in the Quran that specifically command that adulterers must be stoned to death.Where else if you care enough to study the Bible, it is clearly stated in it that such thing is permissible. I'll save you your time and put it here so that we can compare should you are able to point out to us that it can also be found in the Quran:Deuteronomy 22: 22 – 2422 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.Again here:Leviticus 20:1010 ” ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.LoA Reader
Although yes some dispute the latter, Sdr LoAboth al-Quran and Sunnahs are nass for Usul Fiqh jurisprudenceNB. 1) Bible Old Testament: Yes sure many same rules from Ibrahimic teachings but Christians chose to superceed some with New Testament2) Fatwa on Hudud: I leave it to learned Majlis Fatwa panel to evaluate the admissibilty of the Hadiths in question. I know and trust the Majlis members for Melaka BWD although disagree with one or two fatwasM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,My apologies for speaking up again but I find it quite unbelievable that you are continuing to speak like a person of authority on the subject of Islam.From 4 January 2017 at 18:41://Absolutely no Hudud without thorough understanding by Muslims and non-Muslims//Seeing as you will kill your "lil sis" Annie for adultery, you are implying that you have a thorough understanding of hudud.I suppose you feel it is only the lesser-educated Muslims and the non-Muslims who don't understand.But you refuse to explain your personal motivations for wanting to kill your 'lil sis' Annie for adultery.I wonder what are you hiding?I wonder why you are hiding whatever it is you are hiding?I think you should stop making any statements on matters relating to Islam until you can answer some very basic questions about your own relationship to and beliefs in Islam.//but Christians chose to superceed some with New Testament//Looks like Christians are smarter and more forgiving than Muslims.They know how and when to stop primitive and barbaric practices and they did it a long long time before Muslims.Maybe Muslims should learn how the Christians have managed to do it :)Maybe that is why Christianity is more respected and favoured by people around the world.Islam in Malaysia is growing only because Muslims in Malaysia have lots of children.Give the Malays free choice of religion and see what happens :)I predict that the power of the ular-mak in Malaysia will collapse within one generation, max two.//I know and trust the Majlis members for Melaka BWD//Here we go again.Let somebody else do the thinking for you in matters where YOU should be the one doing the thinking.Gladiator
The Majlis Fatwa members are qualified, Sdr Gladiatorto issue fatwas. They:1) Interprete al-Quran in the original language( cannot rely merely on others translation)2) Follow a robust jurisprudence process 3) Make decision by consensus4) Option: Enforce fatwa by passing enactments and laws in the state assembly or ParliamentThey are the authority not us, and since no else doing it I'm just trying to explain the broad processes boleh?M ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,//The Majlis Fatwa members are qualified//Yeah, sure, let them do your thinking for you.Don't question, don't ask, don't object.Just shut up and accept.Now just pick up that stone and throw, right?It reminds me of that old protest catch cry during the Vietnam war, "Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity".In this case, it is "let's kill someone to show the world what good pious people we are".//I'm just trying to explain the broad processes boleh?//I didn't ask for "broad processes" to be explained, so I have no idea why you are bringing them up here.It just sounds like you are trying to change the subject and blame somebody else for your own motivations in picking up that stone :)M Zin, do you see what I mean about being evasive?Gladiator
I was only responding to Sdr LoAs above commentsand not for me to say any reader here is an authority( Sdr Gladiator, you at 10:41)I note your comments OK(?) Sdr GladiatorM Zin Alor Gajah DPH
Responding? It appears to me more like you only confirmed that the Muslims took what was once part of Christians' Biblical practice and made it their own.When you say:The Majlis Fatwa members are qualified, Sdr Gladiatorto issue fatwas. They:1) Interprete al-Quran in the original language;what is there to interpret when the stoning of adulterers to death IS NOT FOUND in the Quran in the first place? Can you explain this? Oh I forgot, you are not qualified, yet still taking up the role trying to be preachy here and thinking all Muslims are like you.LoA Reader.
You are obviously aware there are Hadith Sahihs Muslim and Abi Dawud on Hudud, Sdr LoA Readerthat the Majliss fatwa in the original Arabic narration, would admit as nassHadiths?I did not include it here because you disagreed a couple of times previously above to Hadiths. Thats your choice and I respect your beliefs, and I have huhu to admit of not having the energy to open another topic for discussionM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
What Hadith Sahih are you blabbering about Zin? Don't tell us that you are one of those that actually believed a goat ate that piece of parchment with the writings on the stoning of adulterers before it could be included in the Quran. No wonder.Here, for clarity, this is Surah 39:23"God has brought down the best Hadith; a book (Quran) that is consistent in its frequent repetitions."Still reading and believing from elsewhere, Zin?The following Quranic verses make this issue so clear:45:6"These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?"7:185“Or have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all things which God has created? Or that perhaps their time may be drawing near? Which Hadith, other than this (Quran), do they believe in?”77:50“So in which hadith, other than this (Quran), do they believe?”As clearly stated above, those verses contain the same precise commandment not to follow anything other than the Quran.I strongly urge you to start reading the Quran again, instead of needing to reply here. Read and understand, not reciting it in that sing song manner we were taught to since very young. Semoga dapat melihat kebenaran. Allah telah pon memberi kita AKAL untuk berfikir.LoA Reader
You read the word 'hadith' solely in the literal sense, Sdr LoA Readerand OK thats you and your gurus(?) interpretationTafsir al-Quran:Yes no need according to you for me to reply, but many like in our kampung here read al-Quran every morning and interprete using Tafsir Ibn Kathir which will differ from your interpretationHadith:Regardless of our different interpretation, Hadiths from The Prophet SAW provide important instructions not described in al-Quran. All 13 rukun Solat prayers are narrated from The Prophet SAW of which 8 can be read from Kitab Jami'as-Sahih BukhariWa 'Llahu 'alamM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,Reading what you are writing, you seem to want to show that you are very skilled in matters Islamic.Yet you choose not to answer my questions.Why is that?Gladiator
I have answered but maybe not the one you want kut(?) Sdr Gladiatorand I'm OK if you don't value itM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
Touché, Gladiator! You nailed it.LoA Reader
What has nailing(?) really got to do with disagreeing from honest discussion on religion matters, Sdr LoA ReaderM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,//I have answered//Sorry, the problem is that you DID NOT answer anything.You talked a lot about other things, you showed off your command of Islam, but you never did answer any questions I put to you.e.g. Could you explain why you are willing to kill your "lil sis" Annie for adultery despite it being none of your business as you have stated?I have a feeling this is how many religious teachers conduct discussions, i.e. avoid answering directly, subtly change the subject, talk about lots and lots of other things, lead the discussion away from the questioning, introduce new unrelated questions, talk some more about those unrelated questions, answer those new unrelated questions than claim that the original question has been answered.Such behaviour seems deliberately designed to make Islam look stupid, primitive and barbaric.Is that your intention, M Zin?Gladiator
I have said above that sentencing is by Syaria court judgesand that anyone and if it includes me, that carries it out have to abide by due court processes. I hope that finally suficesDiscussion on Islam:( TQ LoA for forum)As for the discussion on Islamic practices and Hadiths that you and LoA reader have commented at some length on this threadI shared some minimum information in reply to your specific Qs on the subjectand then sadly you say I'm what(?) showey( my intention? Gladiator @ 21:14)I deny it and you can check my responses aboveI however have to respect your observation although most of what is here are known by practising MuslimsOf course we'd expect that these practices are not universally accepted here specially of Islamic authorities, and that is really another subjectM ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,//and that anyone and if it includes me, that carries it out have to abide by due court processes//Finally, after thousands of words, you have decided to put it in plain simple words, thank you.So, let me understand you.You are saying that you will stone your "lil sis" Annie to death because someone told you to do so.No thinking on your part, no questions, and all because someone told you that it is OK to stone your "lil sis" Annie to death for something which does not involve you?//I deny it and you can check my responses above//You deny that you are trying to make Islam look stupid, primitive and barbaric?Gosh, ok, let's look at the evidence You are about to stone to death (the primitive and barbaric part) your "lil sis" Annie for something which does not involve you because someone told you to do so and you are not even questioning it (the stupid part)And you insist that this stupid primitive and barbaric act is an Islamic thing to do?OK, can you explain why it is clever, modern and caring to stone to death your "lil sis" Annie because someone told you to do so?Gladiator
Is that all you wanted to proof(?) about Islam, Sdr Gladiatorthat is vehemently against adulterybut practically impossible to proof and carry out the sentence except by declaration of guilt.Fine then. Can we now close this discussion?( have Himpunan 355 to attend)M ZinAlor Gajah DPH
M Zin,//Is that all you wanted to proof(?) about Islam//Well, I have been on topic so far.The original question was not from me.You have been wandering about trying to avoid answering it but when I asked you other questions you avoided answering those questions as well.//( have Himpunan 355 to attend)//Don't forget to bring a few stones with you.You never know when you might need them.Gladiator
Gladiator,For Muslims, hudud are punishments fixed by Allah. From the point of view of a Muslim, it is something that is immutable. For lack of an analogy, since you are an atheist and you don't believe in the existence of God, even if I tell you that it is unreasonable not to believe in God, you will still say He does not exist.To ask if Annie should be punished should she commit adultery, you must know how the punishment can and cannot be implemented under Islamic law. The slightest of doubt as to Annie's alleged adultery would result in the punishment being inapplicable. For the punishment of rajm for zina, it is not provided in the Quran but the punishment was carried out by the Prophet as is narrated by Abu Hurairah. It is a hadith sahih and in Sahih Al Bukhari. It was narrated by Abu Hurairah that only after the offender confessed to the Prophet directly four times and the offender was determined not to be insane, only then did the Prophet ordered that the punishment be carried out. This means that the punishment is almost never carried out and where there is even the slightest of doubt (higher degree than beyond reasonable doubt), the punishment cannot be carried out.
Anonymous @ 11 January 2017 at 15:49//For the punishment of rajm for zina, it is not provided in the Quran//Thanks for clarifying that it is not in the Quran - I knew that already.So, it is not Allah's law as claimed by some.//only then did the Prophet ordered that the punishment be carried out//Wonderful!!Now you have now established that it is, in fact, a man-made law.Mohamad was, after all, a man, as he always insisted.Notwithstanding any of the above, it is still a primitive and barbaric act which is not sanctioned by Allah in the Quran, as one would expect from a benevolent god.Gladiator
"For Muslims, hudud are punishments fixed by Allah."Anonymous @ 11 January 2017 at 15:49Here we go again. Really now? Punishment fixed by Allah? Yet not in the Quran?Based on Hadith sahih? So is the part about a hungry goat that ate the piece of parchment with the verse too. And this is what sahih is to you?LoA Reader
LOA Reader that hadith is not sahih. Clearly you have not studied Islamic jurisprudence. The Quran is like an immutable constitution for all Muslims whereas Hadiths are the practises of the Prophet. There are many punishments that you call barbaric which may not be barbaric to others. For example if your wife was tortured by a psycho by having her ears cut off you may not think that stoning the psycho is barbaric. Some countries think that hanging a man for distributing 10kg of drugs is barbaric but others think that it is justifiable as hundreds of people die of drug abuse every year.
We are not discussing about punishments meted out by man made law especially on crime related punishments here. Ok?Stoning of adulterers to death, which is what it will be once Hudud is passed is a PUNISHMENTS FIXED BY ALLAH you said.Yet this is what we can find from the Quran where punishment for adulterers/zina:An-Nur 24.2(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to GOD, if you believe in GOD and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.Then how can it be a punishment fixed by Allah when the punishment is clearly stated here through this verse. Allah's words.You can go and on about Hadiths being practices of the Prophet, which were words based on what was written hundreds of years after his death.Tell us, you would rather believe words from Allah or words passed on from one person to another and heard by another and then related to yet another after few hundred years later as the truth?LoA Reader